What genre shadowrun belongs to?

[TheElf]

A lot of people would say it is a cyberpunk genre game, but more you know about it, more reasons you have to question it. The first thing I can name, is the fact: Cyberpunk genre is amoral at best immoral at worst. Yet Shadowrun has a strong moral, which is a strong difference. Maybe stronger than existence of magic. Yet, magic, metahumans and monster isn't the secound most important difference either. The fact you have chances to achive things makes shadowrun a bit different. And we can talk about big things, that can make a game heroic. Yet our list isn't end here. Would you call a game in tibet with no access to technology, but much access to old traditions cyberpunk? Or a post apocalyptic game in and endless desert or wasteland? Or an adventure in space? Or a bug hunt with an aliens feel? Or an almost traditional fantasy game in some magical places? Or playing with indians in the NAN, in an area where most technology is forbidden? You have endless possibilities, without even toucing metaplanes, a magic only campaign, a campaing within the Renraku Arcology, and more. Playing detective stories, sims like everyday campaigns, or anything is possible, and this makes shadowrun looks pretty much like an universal system. Yet with the specified setting and the stronger character definitions it has advantages of setting specific games. And its rules model its nice and rich setting closely. Do you want more?

[Rayston]

Originally Posted by TheElf

A lot of people would say it is a cyberpunk genre game, but more you know about it, more reasons you have to question it.

I Would agree that saying Cyberpunk+Fantasy=Shadowrun is a Gross oversimplification, but I do believe at its root Shadowrun is still pretty closely related to Cyberpunk.

Originally Posted by TheElf

The first thing I can name, is the fact: Cyberpunk genre is amoral at best immoral at worst. Yet Shadowrun has a strong moral, which is a strong difference.

Can you Cite an example? I am actually somewhat inclined to agree but I cant come up with a specific reason why.


On its surface Shadowrun is Pretty immoral, you are after all criminals for Hire. I suppose the justification that there is no place for people like you except for the shadows, and in at least one interpretation of reality Shadowrunners are some of the only people who are truly free in the largely oppressed Populace of the Sixth World. But those Justifications are just that, justifications. Its up in the air wether they hold any weight or not in a true examination of morality.

Originally Posted by TheElf

Maybe stronger than existence of magic. Yet, magic, metahumans and monster isn't the secound most important difference either. The fact you have chances to achive things makes shadowrun a bit different. And we can talk about big things, that can make a game heroic.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree here, although the existence of magic and supernatural elements is obviously a pretty big element of the game, the mood that you can eventually GET SOMETHING DONE, is a more significant difference between shadowrun and traditional Cyberpunk.

Originally Posted by TheElf

Yet our list isn't end here. Would you call a game in tibet with no access to technology, but much access to old traditions cyberpunk? Or a post apocalyptic game in and endless desert or wasteland? Or an adventure in space? Or a bug hunt with an aliens feel? Or an almost traditional fantasy game in some magical places? Or playing with indians in the NAN, in an area where most technology is forbidden? You have endless possibilities, without even toucing metaplanes, a magic only campaign, a campaing within the Renraku Arcology, and more. Playing detective stories, sims like everyday campaigns, or anything is possible, and this makes shadowrun looks pretty much like an universal system. Yet with the specified setting and the stronger character definitions it has advantages of setting specific games. And its rules model its nice and rich setting closely. Do you want more?

I also pretty much agree with all of the above, with the understanding that in the "normal" rules of the game, it doesnt really support alternative game themes very well, for example there is very little cyber out there that anyone but a shadowrunner would want. Where is the cyber that normal people get? Same goes for magic.

Dont get me wrong, I love the Idea of non Shadowrunning Games set in the Sixth world, but the setting as is only barely supports it.

Thanx

Rayston

[TheElf]

Lets see some facts: Shadowrun Companion states that amoral and immoral characters get no karma at all, but what they would get normally can be puirchased for them (so they get a huge disadvantage), it also says, if you use force and have no morals, you are a worse evil, and the companies will choose the smaller problem by letting others live and work, and you to die and rot, and there are others.

Also I can name volumes with other gear, and content, etc: Shadowbeat is a good example, Shadowrun Companion is another, and a lot of different books has rules for non shadowrunner campaigns. The base rulebook is for newbies who want easy adventuring where they are hired to do things. Yet the accessories make the shadowrun very versatile.

[-jackbean-]

Originally Posted by TheElf

Lets see some facts: Shadowrun Companion states that amoral and immoral characters get no karma at all, but what they would get normally can be puirchased for them (so they get a huge disadvantage), it also says, if you use force and have no morals, you are a worse evil, and the companies will choose the smaller problem by letting others live and work, and you to die and rot, and there are others.

Also I can name volumes with other gear, and content, etc: Shadowbeat is a good example, Shadowrun Companion is another, and a lot of different books has rules for non shadowrunner campaigns. The base rulebook is for newbies who want easy adventuring where they are hired to do things. Yet the accessories make the shadowrun very versatile.

How many Shadowrun Games have you played in?
Most of the charactes are Amoral, the Teams Feast on each other, New members are seen as Shark Bait, and your average GM has Players working for the mob working as ruthless mercenaries.
The Genre of Shadowrun is 80's Dark Future. It's not Cyberpunk, it lacks a sensible progression of things. things are always just terrible and stay that way.


In Cyberpunk Games, the future is progressed so far that people try to cling to the past and bring about new ways to do that. For Example, Blade runner, They go nuts creating clones for Space travel, They decide that clones don't deserve to live past 6 years. The clones fight back to earth in failed attempts to get someone on earth to give them a full life span so they can lead a NORMAL life.

[TheElf]

Interesting, we have one who can judge things better than ALL official accessories, and someone who plays Shadowrun for more than 10 years. Nice ideas on your part, but try to read the adventures. But I cannot deny, that there are other people like you who are ignoring the rules, the official story threads (which are present) and think their munckinrun is the correct way.

But maybe it is news to you: A lot of shadowrun adventures have feedback forms, and the outcome of your adventures DO influence the future, all the story threads are continous and situations change with time. Lets see from a pretty early 2nd edition thread: Bug crisis.

With the bug spirit scandals the government is forced to lie about things including the face of Chicago, in 2056 after a few other conflicts the situation looks bad so they decide to cheat at the election, the year of 2057 is mostly influenced with the election where you can see the bug thread is pretty close to its conclusion, but. But before this even the apperance of bugs is explained, and the earthdawn contact is also revealed (Harlequins Back). With Dunkelzahns Death, a new storyline starts, that leads to the corp war stories, and more. Like the Year of the Comet, and the Renraku Archology related stories, all have a progress beyound them.

If you play with players who, like yourself, doesn't know the game, that doesn't give you knowledge to judge the game, and question the rulebooks. You can say "hey it doesn't have enough players" or "in my experience people don't follow the rules or story threads so it isn't allways apply" but overruling the sourcebooks, based on "hey there are players who don't know the books and ignore some rules" and saying you know more about the general concept than the books isn't the best thing you can do.

[TheElf]

One more thing that makes amoral and immoral characters problematic in Shadowrun: Reputation, after the first few times when youbetrayed someone you will get a nice bad reputation flaw, and you know, a newbie can be alone against a wholw group but he knows about them, and the reverse doesn't always stands. A group that cannot recruit help due to bad reputation, loses contacts, etc. for the same reason dies real fast. If you screew your contacts or their bussiness partners you won't get any help. And without legwork, etc. and working contacts you are dead in shadowrun. So good luck with trying to be immoral.

"I ignore the light in the world, then say it is all black" approach doesn't make a world nor a game all black.

[-jackbean-]

Maybe your group is too high and mighty. Most of these Psychopathic SR Gms and players - Don't stick to the Many modules, And these people All agree to stay out of Corporate Fight the Man! style games that sR SHOULD Be about. There are numerous Gms who use it for these style of Homicidal Fests and keep people begging for money -- Also not everyone uses SR Companion or year of the comet, Or even use the same setting as presented.

[TheElf]

There are people who happily ignore what shadowrun is, and play a different game with modified house rules, but if I say Vampire is about highlanders and point out that a lot of people play it with house rules for highlanders, I think a lot of people would laugh at you. A game is about what its sourcebooks, accessories, modules, literature, etc. is about, not about complettely different things you change in it on your own without caring for anything.

I seen more Vampire games with 4th-6th gen assamites having a killing fest yet I don't say VtM is about that, but say VtM is tempting for a lot of such players, and you see a lot of such groups also you see ones whi think handling the talks with dominate and rules is nice and they don't RP much, and the system encourages them more, than it encourages roleplaying. (if you compare the system to Rolemaster) But it doesn't change what Vampire: The Masquerade is about, but it says its performance isn't solid enough. The Shadowrun system and the universe backs these concepts up with very strong conseqences, rules, etc. Of course you can ignore rules, you can decide to use same TNs and roll d10 for the players d4 for opposition, but if you don't follow shadowrun, don't judge its concept based on that experience.

[Rooks]

right so shadowrun is Sci-Fi cyberpink, next

[TheElf]

And there are more stuff to add Play in tibet