Games by Blizard

[TheElf]

I realy don't like what Blizard defines as RPG, and had many negative opinions about Warcarft series as well, but with the bonus campaign of Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne I seen, they can have OK stories as well, wonder why they use the good stories and characters in an RTS game and why their RPGs lack the depth. But the base games undead campaign wasn't my favorite for many reasons, and I had the same problem with seeing the dark ranger, etc. in the expansion campaign. I wonder how their MMORPG will work and how the related RPG titles will work.

[Dire_Flumph]

I remember a lot of arguments about this when it came out, but I never really considered Diablo an RPG. It's an action game that more than anything reminded me of games like the Crusader series from Origin. Similar stat-hack games could be considered RPGS years ago when computing power was limited, but with more ability to put roleplaying back into computer games, I think the definition has shifted.

[Shriek]

Just because a CRPG doesn't meet your definition of a role-playing game doesn't mean it isn't a type of RPG at all. It may just be a pure hack & slash RPG, but that just means it's more tilted torwards combat and less on the theatrics and acting out of roles in RPGs. I myself get a thrill from combat oriented RPGs, although that doesn't mean you have to; the reverse also holds true.

The problem with making a CRPG is that it is very difficult trying to add non-combat elements that work so well in a pencil & paper based game. I personally am trying to address this issue by thinking of ways to reward players for non-combat role-playing in a computer game.

[TheElf]

To call something a roleplaying game you need more than missions, briefing and gadgets you can pick up, the FPS title No One Lives Forever (and No One Lives Forever 2) has more roleplaying in it than Diablo 2, then what would make Diablo 2 an RPG? Nothing. And it isn't RPG for this reason.

[Shriek]

You made a good point about NOLF & NOLF2, one of the problems I have with those games and even some true role playing computer games is they are so darn linear. Of course there needs to be some structure to a CRPG, but not to the point where each step of the game has already been predetermined. This is another one of those tough issues to deal with compared to that of a pencil & paper game.

[TheElf]

It is easy to deal with that, but most games avoid even the easiest tricks. Say in Baldurs Gate 2: Multiple alternate quests in chapter 2. The NwN way doesn't count since it builds on a live DM. We can speak about the MMORPG way, etc.

[Ashes]

Diablo is as someone said an adventure game in a really nice setting.

[TheElf]

I don't realy see it as a normal (click and point) adventure game, but you can define it as such, and for its setting? I doubt if I would call it nice, but everyone can have very different oppinions about it.

But have you played in the Warcraft III Frozen Throne bonus campaign about that orc nation? That was fun.

[UncleDave]

Ah that old chestnut. Basically what it boils down to is how important PC personality is to you in your rpgs. If all you need is a simple, generic role for your PC, then I guess you could be happy with calling Diablo an RPG. For those that want to be able to define the character's personality a bit more by making choices according to what we think the character would do, we might consider games like Fallout to be RPGs. But personally, I dont consider any single player computer game to be a 'true' RPG, because the essence of roleplaying is interaction.

If your PC interacts only with a pre-determined world, even one that contains a high degree of random activity, then you only have a pre-determined set of responses, and you will never be able to fully define your character. Even the much-vaunted Daggerfall had a lot of repetition and blandness to the 'vast' world it contained, when compared to a world as described by a living, breathing, thinking human that can create new things off-the-cuff.

So, what I am saying is that the only true RPGs on computer are those which are multi-player. This can be extended - imagine you play Diablo single player: Hack. Slash. level up. Quest. Hack. Slash. etc etc. Now imagine you play Diablo online, and your group is keen on chat. OK, theres still a lot of hack and slash, but your barbarian can jibe at the necromancer for being a coward, and the necromancer can act haughty in response. Gradually they come to respect each other and develop an unusual friendship, until the Amazon shows up and they fight over her. All the while, solving quests and killing monsters.

True roleplaying can be born, even in a hack and slash environment, if the players are amenable to it.

Cheers!

[TheElf]

In this aspect NeverWinter Nights is great, ok, it has one good reason for it: you don't only have a party but have a DM as well. That means even the world around the party isn't fully predetermined, and it is a big step in the right direction.